General:Masser and Secunda
| Book Information | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| Source: | The Elder Scrolls Forum | ||
| Archived Link: | The Imperial Library Archive.org |
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| Writer(s): | Douglas Goodall, Ted Peterson, Michael Kirkbride, Gary Noonan | ||
| Publication Date: | May 2001 | ||
Masser and Secunda was a brainstorming roleplay on the Elder Scrolls forums by the developers.
Special accounts were created by the developers for participation in this thread, and their forum profiles had special information not listed elsewhere...
- Hasphat Antabolis... From: Hla Oad
- Amiel Arctus... From: Cyrodiil, Cyrodiil, Plaza of Emperor Zero
- Fal Droon... From: University of Gwylim
- Vanus Galerion... From: Wandering around Nirn
- Tharnatos Ultimo... From: The starry heart of Nirn
affamu (05-16-2001)
Speaking of the moons...
1. You can no longer see stars through the moons.
2. I can get around the Roche limit by making the moons VERY DENSE. I actually went through the calculations at home last weekend (I have an old Quatro-Pro spreadsheet that does basic Newtonian astrophysics since my brain has only 9 registers). This works fine, unless I start making the spreadsheet account for the gravitational effects ✶between✶ the moons themselves... In which case one quickly spins out of orbit (and ends up orbiting the sun rather eliptically) and the other crashes into Nirn killing everyone. I don't know if this is a flaw in the spreadsheet or what would actually happen. If I get a realistic formula working, I'll let you know.
3. The lore you mentioned was something Michael Krikbride did (I think). I prefer pseudo-scientific explanations rather than psuedo-mythical explanations, but other devs here feel the opposite way, so Tamriel is likely to continue having the best and worst examples of both approaches.
4. Tamriel, like humanity, is a work in progress.
Tedders (05-16-2001)
You know what I meant dalin ✶poking fun✶, I wasn't trying to say they are not knowledgeable... but even GT would probably admit he learns something new every week on the Lore of Tamirel.... even Tedders who wrote alot of it would probably agree...
I bloody well would not! Thanks to good, clean living, I remember all.
'Course, it's all a matter of organization. From what I understand, Old Mad Nulfaga still runs the library at Bethesda, able to find who was the king of Firsthold in 2E 245 and what the most poisonous herb in Elsweyr is with only a few weeks' turnaround. On the other hand, she smells something awful, and her handwriting leaves a little something to be desired.
WormGod (05-16-2001)
Scientific discovery often collides with mythical perceivance, causing heavy dispute within Tamriel. Is anyone ever really right? Is anyone ever really wrong? Much of what is written about Tamriel is from the mythical or scientific side of the fence, and there is always known and unknown contradiction that follows. Afterall, what keeps Tamriel more exciting.... knowing all the answers, or seeing the mysteries unravel?
Tedders (05-16-2001)
GT's absolutely correct, and I would only add that the tradition of contradictory text has been around for a while. It's not just myth versus science, but disparate politics that cause some of the questions. See the two accounts of the War of Betony, one from Daggerfall's perspective, one from Sentinel's perspective, in Xanathar's (now Qwerty's) Library. Who can say in a hundred years' time which will be established as factual history?
Hasphat Antabolis (05-16-2001)
✶sigh✶
While beautiful, the devs just got it wrong. Ken should've caught it. Rock on, Glorantha! Rock over, London!
affamu, you forget the general mystery of dangerous men.
Michael Kirkbride
(who steps back behind the curtain where the devs belong)
Tedders (05-16-2001)
Hasphat, you've been guzzling too much greef. The Cosmology was clearly written by an unstable soul. No one of any learning in Tamriel follows that personification-of-the-moons theory any more, do they? Did you get your information after summoning up Hermaeus-Mora on some stormy night?
Hasphat Antabolis (05-16-2001)
Ahem.
"ALMSIVI, or at least that aspect that chose to be Vivec, sat in the Litany Hall of the False Thinking Temple after his battle with the Flute-and-Pipe Ogres of the West Gash. He began writing, again, in his Book of Hours. He had to put on his Water Face first. That way he could separate the bronze of the Old Temple from the blue of the New and write with happiness. Second, he had to take another feather from the Big Moon, further rendering it dead. That way he could write about mortals with truth. Third, he recalled the Pomegranate Banquet, where he was forced to marry to Molag Bal with wet scriptures to cement his likeness as Mephala and write with black hands."
I'm not one to argue with Temple doctrine. Are you?
Hasphat Antabolis
Tedders (05-16-2001)
You're speaking of epistemology, which is probably out of good Hasphat's ken, being himself guilty of the logical fallacy "argumentum ad verecundiam," or appeal to authority. Just because an expert at some point in the past stated something as true does not make it so.
We're meant to adhere to the word of the Temple?
Hasphat probably still adheres to the mistake that "daedroth" is the singular form of "daedra." Try telling Molag Bal that he is a great daedroth and see how quickly your bones are liquified.
Hasphat Antabolis (05-17-2001)
Mr. Tedders,
I talked to the daedroth Molag Bal. He told me to tell you to take your bargain Latin back to Target.
Tamriel is a magical world and its gods walk the earth and when you mention constructs like logical fallacies they look at you funny since, well, those really don't exist in a world where God can show you His playbook.
H.
Hasphat Antabolis (05-17-2001)
I am coming to believe the rumors of dopplegangers infesting the Empire after reading what "Hasphat Antabolis" has been posting in my name. Fortunately, the impersonator was neither clever nor subtle, which should clearly mark the counterfeit submissions from my real voice (for those with the wit to see the difference).
The learned Mr. Affamu has himself fallen into a fallacy of his so-called "science" -- that what he currently observes has always been true. To wit, he assumes that because in our present era the moons appear as bright crescents with an opaque "shadow" that they are actually solid spheres with a light source behind them. This is, of course, the first assumption of any educated layman, as the experiment is readily performed in one's parlor and one can smugly assure oneself that the simple appearance of a thing is the True Thing itself.
This ignores, of course, thousands of years of research into the phenomena of the Moons, including eyewitness reports of those who have travelled there before and since their deaths. It is well known among scholars that the "shadow" waxes and wanes with the passing eons; the most widely accepted theory is that this is a symptom of the decay of the substance of the Moons -- perhaps a noxious exhalation exuded by the rotting corpse. The exact cause of its appearance and disappearance is unknown. Some have theorized a kind of Lunar storm which occasionally blows the surface free of this dark cloud; others propose a spiritual origin, that what we are seeing is the ghost or shade of the living Moon still clinging its former body, and sometimes taking on its former shape. The latter seems best to account for smooth junction of "shadow" and moon, but it has not yet been definitively proven, since means of travel to the Moonplanes has been lost since Mythic times.
Tedders (05-17-2001)
I am coming to believe the rumors of dopplegangers infesting the Empire after reading what "Hasphat Antabolis" has been posting in my name.
Smells like Jagar Tharn / Nightingale / Uriel Septim VII's simulacrum's work to me.
Antabolis Hasphat (05-17-2001)
Indeed so.
Divayth Fyr the Psijic (05-17-2001)
400 years of listening to squabbling, babbling madmen and the uncongenial 'Houses', tends to render one's ears to swell to a closure. Tongues with more than 2 legs 'will' walk and bleed self promoted scripture. I may be labeled an 'old, mickle wizard', but I still recognise superfluous preachings. Masser and Secunda are clearly bodies from a time when the Old Ways were in their infancy. How can One know the true existence and origin of forms themselves? Heresay? It is quite simple. My knowlege, which exists solely for the Old Ways of the Isle of Artaeum, is broad in many ways, but no mere mortal could even pretend to understand. Writings, preachings, mad squabbles.... all lend themselves to no more than profound confusion and even madness, without evidence. As a Master of Secrets, and a 'neutral' overseer of the Old Ways, I seek balance. Is there no right or wrong in what you gentlemen believe? I beg of you to listen to your madness and find lucidity in your tongues. Travel in peace and seek compromise.
Tedders (05-17-2001)
Let me see if I understand your point, Fyr. In short, the evidence is clear, but you're not free to share it. Why should we accept your word for it when accepting the word of others is, as you would have it, hearsay? That seems an untenable argument.
I must say it's typical of the Psijics to horde their knowledge and then mock other scholars for not seeing the way. Thank Mara for Vanus Galerion for freeing the Old Ways and founding the Mages Guild.
Divayth Fyr the Psijic (05-17-2001)
Alas Tedders, if I may, that is just my point. I do not pray you believe my word. I simply state that preaching your beliefs to others, when you are simply a lap nix to the soul you heard it from, is rudiment. Any young kit can do that. But to trully understand your argument and to have fact as your weapon.... well now lad, that's another story. I myself do NOT claim to have your answers, and therefore, I do not frolic in the Garden of Madness. Historical myth and self observance are trully great tools in which many use to decipher many mysteries. It is also fact, that historical myth is a false existence, and that self observance may be manipulated by that pesky Clavicus Vile. All things aside, Masser and Secunda included, the real mystery here is 'belief'. Belief is not, and will never be, a shared notion. There is no way to dictate one's belief. Now now, look at me. My ramblings are beginning to take on those of a mad Dreamer. Allow me to excuse myself from this discussion my fellow 'scholars'. For it is time I return to my more meaningful duties. Immortality.... now there is a concept.
Keep your heads about you lads. For the world is broader than your observance.
Striker (05-17-2001)
Basically what is known may or may not be true. He did quite well at avoiding the question and telling us what we already know, don't you think?
-Striker
Sheogorath (05-17-2001)
Basically what is known may or may not be true.
Strange, I got the exact opposite -- that what is not known may not or may be true. I guess it's all subjective.
Jobasha (05-18-2001)
The "Western Knight of the Sandy Mane" asked Jobasha to pass along these words:
"Nulfalga? The old fraud? Feigning madness will not protect her from justice. Nulfalga aids the Psijics in their unfortunate plans, just like this Divayth Fyr traitor to all Nirni.
"Long ago Yokudans believed Nirni was flat. So they set out in their ships to find Nirni's end and the winds carried thier scent back to Yokuda. Then they believed Nirni was like a ball. Khajiit always knew our Known Mother was a ball. Our Secret Mother made Nirni a ball to remind us that She was ours to play with. When Khajiit knew Nirni was a ball and Yokudans thought Nirni was flat, what was She? You think these so called Divines care what mortals think? You think your Septim says "flat" and the Divines dance around and stomp the ball flat? Clearly this is false, but once you believe the Elven Lie, once you believe Ayem is Ayem and Bedt is Bedt, Kier-Jo fears it is too late. You still do not understand the twenty-four forms in logic. Kier-Jo makes it simple simple for you. Eight phases for every moon. Eight logics between yes, no, and might be. Two of each common Khajiit and eight more. Even the Elves hid it in their precious twenty-four alphabet.
"If not the Divines, if not Jobasha's precious heroes, what makes things happen? Again Kier-Jo makes it simple simple. Var var var.
"ALMSIVI? A game for children. ALM-SI-VI. Let the three colors fight it out amongst themselves.
"Temple Doctrine? You still trust their writings? Kier-Jo says, if they are so full of truth, why has Vivec been hiding his scent all these years?
"Travel to the three Js in PSJJJ after your death? Only those who smoke the sugar of the moons instead of eating it travel there. Kier-Jo does not trust what they say.
"Dopplegangers? Ah, Kier-Jo has a sugar-pinch of respect for you now. But what do you know of these Dopplegangers? Who will come rescue you when the Septim finally slumps off his throne and into history? Jobasha would say we need another hero... But dare Kier-Jo ask what happened to the last "hero?" Does this "hero" still walk Nirni? Do we even know this hero's name? Nords say he was the son of a proud king. Dunmer say she was the daughter of Almalexia. The Altmer say in public that he was an enlightened wizard and they admit in private he was an outcast... as if the Altmer had something to say about it. The Bosmer say she was a Ayleidion Aurehliar. The Lysrezi even believe he was a Vampire from a realm outside of Nirn! Kier-Jo scoffs at such obvious lies. Why does Kier-Jo not know this hero's name? Dare Kier-Jo suggest the reason for this secrecy? Perhaps the "hero" died fighting Jagar Tharn. Perhaps Jagar Tharn won, Cyrodiil? When was the last time you saw your Emperor? Perhaps the Septim promoted this "hero" to Oblivion? Perhaps the Septim feared the "hero" would find the real truth? No, Kier-Jo would not suggest such treacherous things.
"Truth? Truth is moon sugar and no one may keep it. Hold it in your hands, it slips away. Eat it, it returns to the ground. Smoke it, you can never hold it in. Kier-Jo knows nothing of truth, but much of necessity. You Cyrodiils must be stopped before the third and last Big Walkder stomps his eight footsteps into the deserts and poisons us all!
"Wake, Cyrodiil, Wake from the Elven Lies that All Men Believe!"Jobasha does not pretend to understand the ravings of skooma-- er, scholars like Kier-Jo the Chorvakh, or the ramblings of grave robbers like Hasphat, or even the lullabies of one who claims to be a Psijic when Jone shines and then claims to be merely a retired wizard when Jode follows.
Even though Jobasha risks quarrel with such a... rrr... learned scholar as Kier-Jo, Jobasha must ignore the mysteries of dangerous men and explain what Jobasha can explain:
ja'Kha'jay -- the lunar lattice, the changing of the lunar seasons
Jode and Jone -- the two visible moons of Nirni
Nirni, Known Mother -- Khajiit for Nirn, the world
Ahnurr -- Khajiit for Anu. Read the Annuad for Jobasha fears a summary.
Trickster -- Baan-Dar or Rahjin or maybe even Lorkhaj. Jobasha does not know.
Secret Mother -- Jobasha... must not say.
Psijics -- A mysterious order of wizards, of which Jobasha knows little and cares less.
Dopplegangers -- Do not let "scholars" lie to you. Jobasha knows these rumors are untrue. While Jobasha shares some sentiments about the Empire, Jobasha disapproves of such dishonest methods.
Big Walker -- Sewer-Khajiit for Anumidium or any creature or construct too big for a skooma-addled mind.
Var var var -- "var" is "to be" the saying is similar to the Redguard "what will be will be" which is derived from the Yokudan "what Satakal wills is willed." Jobasha thinks it is not unlike the Atmoran "it's just so." At it's heart, a comment on mortals locus of influence. Of course a real hero ✶can✶ change Tamriel, but there have been none since Jobasha's mother's day...
"Water Face" "Pomegranate Banquet" "Tongue with more than two legs"
These mean nothing to Jobasha. What, if Jobasha may ask, is a Pomegranate?
Var var var. Do not worry. Come to Jobasha's Rare Books in Vivec. Look around. Maybe buy something, maybe learn something. But keep the dangers of understanding new things too quickly just under your nose. The Deep Elves looked deeply into such mysteries. Wise Jobasha wants nothing of thier fate.
Amiel Arctus (05-18-2001)
From the Chapbook of Accepted Future Heresies of the Maruhkati Selectives:
"Nothing is solved this close to era's end, jumping across hand-in-hand with schoolyard laughs and dancing where everywhere ends in a vowel and the Sun settles out of court-- beautiful like you, running through graphs wiped away like the ghosts of moons where we'll solve it one day, then resolve to go once more into the oblique, my love-- like here, sealed with a Septim and sent and set into the record of wishing, all of it a streak and a color and all of it imperfect as the language it lives in, a wondering runaround found only when you find it."
Fal Droon (05-18-2001)
Though it may be hard to believe, what this particular 'Arctus' (the proliferation of which being one of the many reasons I decided to leave the capital) is referring to is Temple Zero's Theory of the Lunar Lorkhan.
I will not go into the varying accounts of what happened at Adamantine Tower, nor will I relate the War of Manifest Metaphors that rendered those stories unable to support most qualities of what is commonly known as 'narrative.' We all have our favorite Lorkhan story and our favorite Lorkhan motivation for the creation of Nirn and our favorite story of what happened to His Heart. But the Theory of the Lunar Lorkhan is of special note regarding this thread.
In short, the Moons were and are the two halves of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity'. Like the rest of the Gods, Lorkhan was a plane(t) that participated in the Great Construction... except where the Eight lent portions of their heavenly bodies to create the mortal plane(t), Lorkhan's was cracked asunder and his divine spark fell to Nirn as a shooting star 'to impregnate it with the measure of its existence and a reasonable amount of selfishness.'
Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the 'Cloven Duality,' according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness, the poetry of the body, throat, and moan/silence-as-the-abortive, set in the night sky as Lorkhan's constant reminder to his mortal issue of their duty. Followers of this theory hold that all other 'Heart Stories' are mythical degradations of the true origin of the moons (and it needn't be said that they observe the 'hollow crescent theory', as well).
Art conceals Naught,
Fal Droon
Vanus Galerion (05-18-2001)
Thank Mara for Vanus Galerion for freeing the Old Ways and founding the Mages Guild.
For many long years I did regret that very deed, as it seems I created just another monster of sinister politics.
The virtue of magic I found in my solitary travels, many years after I abandoned the Mages Guild and ventured on my own.
Tharnatos Ultimo (05-18-2001)
Though it may be hard to believe, what this particular 'Arctus' (the proliferation of which being one of the many reasons I decided to leave the capital) is referring to is Temple Zero's Theory of the Lunar Lorkhan.
Flee while you can, and take your Wisdom with you. Your Era is ending. Nirn reborn will have no room for your kind, and the smoke of your pyres will be sweet in the nostrils of all true Heretics.
Tedders (05-18-2001)
For many long years I did regret that very deed, as it seems I created just another monster of sinister politics.
Poor Trechtus. It's too late now.
Jobasha (05-19-2001)
Jobasha says only one thing: The Mages Guild seems better than the Psijiic or Telvanni paths... But Jobasha is no wizard, only a humble bookseller.
Again Kier-Jo asks me to pass on these words. One day, perhaps, Jobasha will deny him:
Cloven Duality? Where is this? Again, you Wayward Folk insist on Either-Or. Alas, the universe Kier-Jo sees insists no such limit.
Accepted Future Heresies? Kier-Jo sees three contradictions in three words. How does this alledged scholar know of the future? Did you get a private reading room with the Elder Scrolls themselves? Did you break Alkosh again?
The Adamantine Tower, you say? Kier-Jo walked there. Kier-Jo saw no "secrets of the gods" or evidence of this "war of manifest metaphors." Kier-Jo saw only vampires and old books and a pretty but dull sorceress.
Perhaps, says Kier-Jo, the secrets are hidden in the Tower's design. Dare Kier-Jo suggest the Masters do what they did to Alkosh? Make the tower speak its protonymic? No, Kier-Jo would never dare suggest such a thing.Jobasha admits defeat. The ravings of Kier-Jo mean nothing to Jobasha. Take of them what you will. Jobasha fears the Kier-Jo was fed bad moon sugar at birth. Jobasha is even usure who Kier-Jo was speaking to.
affamu (05-20-2001)
MK (I think) was using "plane(t)" in a rather specific sense... at least for Tamriel. I don't think I'm allowed to say more, but some clues can be found in the context.
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