Lore talk:Elven Alphabets

Dwemeris in TESV:Skyrim

It won't help a thing with the previous games, but in Skyrim three new books have been added (Dwemer inquiries I, II and III I believe) of which the second book can be used to translate the entire alphabet (Safe for X and Q), I'm no good at adding things to wiki pages, so I would appreciate anyone being able to add it, the translation of the first text in Dwemeris in every one of the books is "In the deep halls, far from man Forsaken Red Mountain, Twisted kin Hail the mind, Hail the stone Dwarven Pride, stronger then bone." The second text in the second book reads "Risen by order cousin-of-privilege Cuolec of scheziline privileged duties Clanhome building Hoagen Kultorra tradition to hailed world shaper" This text can also be found in the third book in normal english. In the third book, it also states a sentence which the writer translates, however it literally states "Falzhardumdin" my own assumption is that "Falzhardumdin" is the name for the Dark Reach (Sorry if name's inaccurate, I'll edit if I've got it wrong and I've checked). This assumption is made after reading the books, and noticing the three Dwemer locations named lead to Dark Reach.118.82.150.60 11:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I am the same person who started this topic. Anyway, I have managed, using the translation of Dwemeris, to translate the Dwemer part of Calcelmos stone. Interesting enough, it does not come up with a literal English translation like the Dwemer Inquiries do. Instead it says this:

Chun thuamer arkngd chend duathad, th ahvaudn btham amz thuamer ahrkanch kemelmzulchond, aka<end of line>mora, th thuangz ahrk, th duum melz thuabthargn, th kanthaln guabcharn mzin thuastur, btharumz thua<end of line>mer zel. Abakch duumarkng tuathumz amakai, th abakch avatheled kagr tuamkimgth mzan. Du chal fahl<end of line>ngark, che du fahl bthun ur. Du chal fahl ngalft, che du bthun ur. Du abak chal thu abazun nchur<end of line>duabthar, nchul duanchard. Th ur thuangchuth irkng, ur irkngth eftardn, thunch fahlz. Bthun abardua<end of line>mzual th nchuan anum ralz, th eftar thuachendraldch kagren thu(a)<end of line>vanchningth.

I said <end of line> instead of just enter or such, because the Thua<end of line>mer part, makes me think this might be one word (As Thuamer has been mentioned before). Further, the a in brackets is in brackets because I was not sure if it was an actual a, or just a smudge. Further, this is a long text, and I could have made some mistakes. It is definitely Dwemeris though, as there are many recurring bits, which also feature in previously known words and names such as Kemel. If someone is able to find any one of these words in a different source, for example a name or such, it would probably be really helpful in translating this text.118.82.150.60 01:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Just some assumptions, but I think that Thuamer, might translate to Falmer, since Calcelmos stone is a text which translates to Falmer. Further, Thuamer is the only word containing Mer, which is generally elven for People. This would also mean that Thua means snow. Further, there is another commonality: Mora, which means forest in certain elven languages. Now, this is a heavy assumption, but Aka might mean dragon, hence Aka mora or Akamora might be Dragon Forest, which could mean anything, maybe the mushroom forest in Blackreach? As there is a dragon in Blackreach...118.82.150.60 00:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, ignore any previous assumptions of what which word might mean. I have been comparing the Falmer text, and its speculative partial translation (From ayleid) with the Dwemer text, and it seems that the Dwemer, like the Ayleid, use compound words quite often. Further, the word Thua seems to have the same meaning as Sou in Ayleid (Your) Th might mean And. Further, I am not fully convinced of this, but Ur might mean as, however this does not seem to add up if Ur is at the end of a sentence. Then finally, I have reason to believe that Aka Mora means King(s)(of) (the) wood(s). Also, I edited the translation from the Dwemer alphabet to the Latin one to be more correct (It had a few minor flaws in it)118.82.150.60 03:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I also studied this stone for a while, and reached the same conclusions as you. I believe "ur" translates into "citadel", as in Dagoth Ur. I did get a partial translation, but it isn't complete enough to add to the website. • JA^Talk 03:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

We can not rule that out, but it is also a rather big assumption, I will note it in my notes however. Also, perhaps that the word Thua (which might mean your, or you) is often in composite, as that is how the Dwemer write possessive words, for example, Thuamer might be Your people. I didnt see this first, because I foolishly assumed that Mer meant elves, instead of ones, or people. Then, if a Thua is seperate from any other words, it could mean You, instead of Your. 210.48.123.131 23:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

With the Dawnguard DLC, the Lost to the Ages Quest is added, this is also adds katrias journal, which states: Mentioned as a 'Bthar-zel' ('allied city'?). Not Bthardamz, though. Looks like a smaller site, north or northwest of there, on the river. I believe, that even with the questionmark, that we can assume Bthar-zel (or Btharzel) to mean Allied City.Kamica (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2013 (GMT)

Okay, apparently "fell" means City according to the Pocket guide to the Empire (Vvardenfell = City of the Strong Shield, Valenfell = City of the hammer). Zel and Fell are rather similar, so it could be that zel means a different type of city? Could be anything from village, to fortified city. As we don't know how the Dwemer classify their cities it's hard to tell. Furthermore, Vvardenfell and Valenfell both have the "enfell" and the "va" parts in common, and in the translation have the "City" and "Of the" in common. As such, "Of the" could be "va" or "en" or any further mutation of that. It could also literally translate to "Strong Shield City" for Vvardenfell and "Hammer City" for Valenfell. In general, as is usually the case, I don't have enough information to make a solid conclusion. The "Fell" variant of city (Or "Enfell or "Ell") could even mean a combination of dwemer sites, more akin to a country, since Vvardenfell and Valenfell are both significant regions with multiple Dwemer cities and other sites in them.Kamica (talk) 04:48, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

Dwemer script on the KotN box

After reading the article about the Lore:Daedric Alphabet I've discovered the runes on the siede of the DVD boxes for the first time. Curious I've looked what is written on the Knights of the Nine box. I do not know if this box (containing all DLCs) is availible in the US. But on the German version they're runes, too. But these are Dwemeri runes. According to this chart the text reads:

UMARILA A?LNADA RA?UYAR A? OIOEALA

The ? are standing for unknown letters. The U was assumed by me, because of the likeness to Umaril. The text seems not to make any sens. If somebosy knows the translation or can read more from these runes please tell me (and the rest of the people that want to decode the Dwemeri). If a picture of the runes is needed: you can find one here. --Killfetzer 18:13, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Ooh, good catch! We've known for a while that Ayleid text is written in Dwemer script. I'll have to take a closer look at these later. It's too bad a lot of the text is obscured and un-readable, but we might be able to extract some new letters out of this. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 22:46, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Looks to me like it's trying to say "As oiobala Umarile, Ehlnada racuvar" (rearranged), which is written in blood around Anvil Chapel's altar and referred to by the prophet at the start of the quest. It translates as "By the eternal power of Umaril, the mortal gods shall be cast down". See this note for more details. --Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 00:10, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

Thank you, Rpeh. Than we have at least some more Dwemeri/Ayleid runes. Especially the Y looks really Dwemeri like. But the text seems to be Ayleid. Another hint that the two scripts are identical. --Killfetzer 03:25, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

Is there any chance you could upload a scan so we can see the new letters? --Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 03:43, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

Done. I hope Bethesda solves the remaining letters in TES V ;) --Killfetzer 05:07, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

Ayleid language example

I'm just curious about where the example in the picture to the left can be seen in-game, in which Ayleid ruin.--Quill 08:47, 13 February 2008 (EST)

I'm guessing from the translation that it is in Vahtacen. --Gaebrial 09:24, 13 February 2008 (EST)

A guess as good as any, but still a guess. Somebody knows, and I too would like to. :) --Quill 16:53, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Unfortunately the editor who uploaded the image is no longer active on the site, so you're unlikely to get an answer from him. And the lack of more definitive responses from anyone else probably means that none of the active editors know, either. So all you're likely to get are guesses. If you want to find out for sure, you're probably going to have to go and explore on your own, or search the game's .bsa file for that texture and then see where it was used. --Nephele^Talk 01:43, 15 February 2008 (EST)

It's from Cloud Top. --Nephele^Talk 10:20, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

on account of deciphering the Knights of the Nine box: Oooo! i think i actually have an answer to this! i took the Dwemer language long ago and i can read it pretty well by now. now, like you said, the translations between English ans German may mess things up... but when i got the game i too noticed the lettering on the edges. the English version translates to "there is no genius with out a touch of madness" which fits with the game.  :)

now my question is: why are some documents translated to English, while others seem to have a complex system? — Unsigned comment by Katara 779 (talk • contribs) at 02:27 on 20 March 2009

Now that we have an actual valid Dwemer text (Calcelmo's stone), is it still necessary to have so many Ayleid examples? We know the only similarity between the two languages is the script. I believe that should just get a small mention and be done with it. This is a page about the Dwemer Language, not the Ayleid. 210.48.123.131 20:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Re-Formatting

This page is, to be frank, a complete mess. I think it needs some serious re-formating. --HMSVictory^Talk 11:19, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

gah! my bad! i just remembered that the box i am talking about was that of the Shivering Isles. sorry, sorry! i'll look into the box n question. BRB

Edit: ...interesting. the runes are nothing i have translated before. just as confused as you right now. :( — Unsigned comment by Katara 779 (talk • contribs) at 02:32 on 20 March 2009

More phonemes?

Looking at the pronunciation of a Dwemer phrase given in Redguard (Shahbth ih awerk. Stuh ndah bthahhrk. Awerd sheh ahhmmzrteh.), it seems likely that "a" and "ah" are separate phonemes, and likely to have a character of their own, rather than being spelled with two. The difference in Norwegian O and Ø comes to mind ("It's not an O with a slash; it's an Ø"), and perhaps the same is true of ch and th. They could also simply be ligatures as well. This could possibly explain some of the undeciphered characters. Thoughts? — Unsigned comment by Mannius Mello (talk • contribs) at 18:51 on 20 November 2008

Dwemer/Ayleid Connection

I have a theory regarding why the Ayleid and Dwemer scripts appear so similar. When the Chimer left for Resdayn, no doubt they took their language with them; this language would naturally be Aldmeris, a similar (if not identical) language to what the Ayleids of Cyrodiil spoke. If a script for this language had been developed at the time, then it's entirely possible that the Dwemer adopted this script as their own. It may be possible that the Dwemer, despite their technological prowess, had little patience for the liberal arts such as language, and would have borrowed the common script of the Altmer rather than focusing their energies on creating an entirely different script. This would explain why two structurally different languages use the same script. -Wildcard977 06:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Could I be onto something here?

Looking at the banner from Redguard, there is A*, then FG, LN, *R, VW. I propose that the N has been mistranslated, since it has such a similar symbol to the M, and that these form couples of letters from the alphabet. This would then mean that the unidentified symbol is infact the letter B (logical for it's similarity to A perhaps), and that the current assumed letter B is in fact still unknown. However, it does allow us to speculate that the letter could relate to the letter Q following on from the lettering couples rule. Am I onto anything anyone? Please do email me, I am very intrigued. Dagoneth 12:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. You might be onto something. It certainly seems plausible. I just wish there were more examples of dwemer letters. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought so when I was looking at it. It would reduce the unknown letters to just 4, however, I do want to know why F has the symbol it does, and also the original reasoning as to why B was ? Any idea? My only clue would be that it looks similar to the ayleid letter, but only as similar as my proposal. Finally, looking at the text from Divine Metaphysics and The Egg of Time, is there is an extra letter, (or most likely punctuation character), the second character in The Egg of Time that looks like an _. One thing I'm going to do is look up the dwemer words we know. At the moment, Fell, volen and vvarden. Just to finally check it isnt a random selection of letters. What say you? Dagoneth 22:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

All the information is already on the page. For "F"... decode this image! As you already mentioned, many letters are so similar that it's almost impossible to tell exactly what was meant. I spent some time earlier looking at putative translations for some of the letters and my considered opinion is that... it could all be almost anything. I could even go for "M" and "N" being the same in Dwemeris.

The information on this page is highly speculative. If there is anything you can do to help improve it, your efforts will be greatly welcomed! rpeh •T•C•E• 23:04, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out where F came from, would probably be easier to decode that actually in-game! Agreed with the interchangeability of M and N. They are incredibly similar. So would you agree with my original ideas of B and Q? I would love to change this so I can properly contribute for once! =D Dagoneth 00:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Go for it. I think the proposed "B" is similar enough to the known Ayleid character that it makes sense. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

I have changed the table with the alphabet and the grid next to the redguard banner. However, when going through The Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics books, I noticed they were incomplete from before; missing previously worked out characters. I believe these need to be re-translated, as a simple swap of *s for Bs and inserting Qs would not correct them fully. Dagoneth 12:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the proposed "B" look rather more like the D than the B? Mannius Mello 00:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Umm... no. You realise the "*" is a footnote marker rather than part of the letter, right? rpeh •T•C•E• 01:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Images

The character images look pretty terrible with the white background. I was thinking of making it translucent. Does anyone have any problems with this idea before I begin? Legoless 12:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Please do! Making them bigger would be great too if you have the time. That'll be another item off my things-that-need-doing-that-I-know-I-will-never-get-around-to-doing list :) rpeh •T•C•E• 12:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Is this ok? (The current version) I made it twice as big, and removed the white bits. There are still a few around the edge that could only be efficiently removed by redrawing the image (not my line of work), but I think a bit of pixelation isn't too bad. Excuse the capitalised extension, the uploader was giving me problems with lowercase ".gif" for some reason - I don't think it recognises it. Legoless 12:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a bit pixelated but probably better overall... I always feared they'd need to be totally redrawn. Maybe don't bother with the resize after all and just take care of the transparency? rpeh •T•C•E• 13:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I've replaced the first style. Not too happy with L or R, and I moved File:DWEMER V.GIF to DWEMER U.GIF. Legoless 16:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

They look both better and worse, but on balance I'd say "better". If you're doing the Wormgod set it might be an idea to recreate them from the original graphics (like this one) rather than tweaking the existing ones. Email me so I have your address then I can email the tiles back (after I find them...), unless that's not something that interests you. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Theory about the letter 'P'.

New user here, and I have a theory about the identity of the letter P. Looking at the Redguard observatory, I see that the Dwemer runes, in order starting with Thief, are ABDEFGHIKN_R assuming the speculation about various letters are correct. The underscore marks where the rune for Tower is located, which is the fourth unknown letter. They are obviously in alphabetical order, and the only letters between N and R are OPQ. O and Q are both accounted for, so it must be P. — Unsigned comment by Frobozz (talk • contribs) at 05:57 on 7 October 2011

Cipher needed?

Just a thought that I hadn't seen elsweyr and found surprising that nobody had mentioned. The "thrice-secret word" provided to Vivec by Kagrenac required the use of Vivec's name to decode a Vigenere cipher. It's distinctly possible that "Divine Metaphysics" requires a similar key to read, and that it isn't nonsense at all, especially considering the Tonal Architecht himself was the one who created the plans, and he seemed to be into that kind of thing. I know that not all the Dwemer characters have definitive translations yet, but it seems possible. I haven't fully read anything, so this may be something everybody already knows. But I hadn't seen it anywhere, so I figured I'd bring it up.

On a side note, it's entirely possible that certain characters don't denote language at all, but the order or position that the words need to be grouped or arranged. Again, just a thought.

Edit- And judging by the ridiculous complexity of the dwarves, certain characters could even denote the omission of other characters. Trying to get outside the box with it. — Unsigned comment by 74.141.84.183 (talk) at 09:26 on 22 December 2011

About the new information from Skyrim

Someone more capable than I with editing pages ought to just incorporate that image's contents into the table at the top of the page. Also, is it really necessary for the user to found this information to be patting himself on the back and linking to his Youtube channel? There's no call for it. 70.169.102.106 10:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed that - one of the problems of the site being so popular. For now I've totally removed that section. The site's better off without it. rpeh •T•C•E• 11:00, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

It's occurred to me that the first of the "unknown" characters looks like it might be the 'P', based on the new alphabet. Does anyone have an image from Redguard of the observatory the previous poster was talking about a few sections up so we can compare? The other three don't seem to resemble anything in that version though. I wonder if it's worth doing the replacements of the speculative letters in the transliterations of Divine Metaphysics and Egg of Time down below. It's pretty much been said by those in the know that there is no actual text hidden there, but it might be worth trying just to satisfy curiosity. (And cause people to waste yet more hours trying to find meaning from randomness...) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 13:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Calcelmo's stone

I edited the translation of Calcelmo's stone to be correct. There were some errors which confused the R for the U and vice versa, and some other errors. I am not saying the text is now error free though, there might still be some errors. I am pretty sure it is quite close to error-free though, I checked the words which were different in my and the previous version with the stone itself in the Creation Kit. I invite other people to check it again, and point at any errors in the text still remaining. On another note, I am not entirely sure, but I believe there is a faint trace of the letter A behind the last word of the line above the last line. (The word is Thu (Thua with the feint A) 118.82.150.60 05:52, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Where did you find this in the Creation Kit? • JA^Talk 03:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

(Note, to make things really clear, for you and others, I will assume you haven't used the Creation Kit yet), basically, you start up the Creation Kit, then you open up the Skyrim master file and wait for it to load. Once it has loaded, click the little white box called Filter in the Object Window. Then type CalcelmosStone and click on All in the menu in the left of the Object Window. Now there should be an object called TG06CalcelmosStone, Right click this, and then press Preview. You might want to change the camera controls in the render window to allow you to get a good look of it.

There might also be ways of just exporting the Texture, which would be brilliant, but I don't know how to do that. If someone could do that, and then place the image in the topic, that would help a lot of intrepid translators. 210.48.123.131 23:27, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I've read that they have plugins for I believe Autodesk Maya, Photoshop, and/or GIMP for viewing Skyrim's models. Thing is, I don't actually have the game files - I use the wiki's CSList, which doesn't have any of the models. I'm stuck on the 360. I hope a PC user out there can get the texture, because that would be very helpful. I don't know much about .NIF files, but if they have any form of notes could you also post those? Any help would be appreciated! • JA^Talk 00:06, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Note that the in the first line of the stone we can read: "Chun thuamer arkngd chend duathand, th ahvardn btham." The article provided the letter "u" instead of "r". Karnilmo 18:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, I will change it right away. I must say, whoever put up that image of the entire wall, Thank you, its a lot clearer than the version I have on my computer! I think I will actually re-read the entire thing, and see if there are other mistakes. Kamica (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

I went through the text again, and noticed that the Falmer translation someone put up, leaves out an important bit. It translates molagnenseliye as Halls of Fire. But that ignores the words NEN and YE. Now, YE might be a writers mistake, where it actually had to be separate (Or the spacing might just be a bit unfortunate). Now NEN is a bit more interesting, on the Ayleidoon page, one of the ruins is said to be called Bisnensel, which translates to New Water Hall. Bis and Nen have not been translated in the actual topic, but sel means hall. So molagnenseli could possibly be Halls of New Fire, New Halls of Fire, or more interestingly, and more fitting to the Dwemer: Halls of Water Fire. In other words, halls of steam. Kamica (talk) 23:14, 5 September 2014 (GMT)

(←) I had originally chalked it up as a difference between falmer and ayleid. While I approve of your assumptions, I'm not sure we can use them without an example of molagnen being translated as steam. I do believe we can change it to Halls of Fire Water though. Jeancey (talk) 03:22, 6 September 2014 (GMT)

As I said in the Ayleidoon talk page (But saying it here again so nobody has to go searching all over the page): I tell my assumptions so that other people might have leads for further investigation. I should probably more clearly denote them as suspicions, so they do not accidentally get added to the page as fact. Anyway, as of yet I haven't really seen any reason to believe that Falmer is different (besides the writing) from Ayleidoon, so I personally will assume they are the same until proven otherwise.101.98.220.118 05:12, 6 September 2014 (GMT)

common ancestory?

The three alphabets of the ayleids, the dwemer, and the falmer, all share incredibly distinct simlarities. Seeing as they are all elven in origin this isnt all that surprising, it implies there is a common ancestry, and it may show that these various races split AFTER the creation of the written language . . . I suggest mergin these pages and having an in-depth analysis of the languages and alphabets. 71.238.243.98 16:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that the Ayleidic runes are equivalent to the Dwemer runes, and all of the Falmer runes match up with the Dwemer runes, albeit in a more calligraphic style. If you look at the chart on this page, you can see that Ayleidic came first, and Dwemer and Falmer both descended from Ayleidic. However, merging these pages is a very bad idea. The connection is already noted on the aforementioned page, and the combined page would be unwieldy in length. That's like suggesting that every building in Whiterun rather than having separate articles should be lumped together onto one gigantic page, simply because they are in the same location. The pages are fine the way they are, as far as organization goes. • JA^Talk 16:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Then why dont ayleid runes get their own page??? The ayleid runes are all talked about here, but they are slightly different . . . I feel like the revelation of the falmer runes, means the ayleid runes are going to have to get their own page. Because it is clear they are all using alphabets descended from a similiar source . . . this page implies that the dwarven runes are being used by ayleids . . . this page . . . it just needs an overhaul, and the ayleid runes need their own page . . . that is my thoughts 71.238.243.98 22:09, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Let's leave aside, for the moment, the points I made here. Besides the runes themselves, there is nothing to base the article on. The Ayleid alphabet is neither mentioned as such nor discussed in any of the sources on Ayleids. If you have any idea at what this article would contain, please do share. -- kertaw48 00:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It is found in ayleid ruins, and written on the ground by forces controlled by the ayleids . . . I suppose what needs to be discussed in the article concerning ayleid runes is the similarity with dwemer and falmer runes, the page would likely equal out to being about hte same length as the falmer alphabet page . . . I think the strongest arguement for an ayleid alphabet page is the fact that umarils goons wrote in it . . . and umaril is an ayleid . . . really the only one to my knowledge in the entirety of the series 71.238.243.98 00:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Any discussion about their common lineage would be moot, as it would be speculation at best. This matter is simply not sourced enough. I suppose the most this article could encompass is a gallery of all Ayleidic writings and a table displaying the alphabet. If you have an idea of how this article would look like, why not try to formulate something in a sandbox until time being? -- kertaw48 01:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I will whip something up one of these days, that will be my pet project . . . an ayleid alphabet page (oh and I have a name now, yaaay) Ralok 01:34, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

(←) I'd suggest you create a page, akin to "User:Ralok/Sandbox" and do your ground work there, since the public sandbox often gets reverted since it's supposed to be used by a lot of users. -- kertaw48 01:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It is a reference to the rosetta stone. Falmer into dwemer. look at these fragments. dwemer- Amz thuamer ahrkanch kemelmzulchond aka Mora, th thuangz ahrk, th duum melz thuabtharng, th kanthaln duabcharn mzin thuastur, btharumz thua mer zel. Falmer- nagaiale as guntumnia spantelepelaelia arani morae ye sou liebali racurane ye nu rautane sye ye nu hautalle nou buroi gune sou gravuloi sa

take particular notice to Mora vs morae and the location of the dwemer th to the falmer ye 67.164.255.136 06:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree on both, I believe Th to mean And, while Mora would logically mean woods, forest or something similar. These are still speculations however, as Th does not perfectly map to Ye (A good example is the very first word in the Falmer text, which is Ye(and), which doesnt have a Th to go with it (the Th in Thuamer is probably a conglomerate of Thua(your?) and Mer(people?). Note that all translations are merely educated guesses, and should not be taken as fact.Kamica (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2012 (GMT)

Removing the Ayleid references

I really think that a large amount of the Ayleid related information can be cut from the page. The very first of these even dares mention that the Ayleid text is an example of Dwemer text. These examples and texts add nothing to the information about the actual Dwemer language, other than to further clarify the connection between the two languages. I suggest that someone would cut down the Ayleid related info to a small reference, and perhaps put the information in a proper Ayleid page.210.48.123.131 14:22, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Runed Lexicon

Not sure it it is useful, but the textures for the Runed Lexicon seem to reveal dwemer runes: File:SR-misc-Runed Lexicon.jpg. --Alfwyn (talk) 22:14, 12 October 2012 (GMT)

Thanks for actually getting the texture! I havent looked at it properly, however at first glance I can tell that the blue and red cube have roughly the same text on them, but that the letters are just different intensities. When I have some free time I will try and use the both of them to see if anything other than gibberish comes out of it. Kamica (talk) 19:59, 19 November 2012 (GMT)

Okay, I looked at them a bit closer, these Lexicons are actually quite interesting, because they have script on them, similar to the books Divine Metaphysics and the Egg of Time... Actually, upon even closer inspection, it appears the Lexicon uses Morrowind script rather than Skyrim script...Kamica (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2012 (GMT)

Okay, The text is very hard to read, but I did find some bits, most notably there are two words at the top right, they spell: ITSATGB?B CEK... Now, if you look at Divine Metaphysics, those exact two words pop up there, I have looked a bit further, and several other Divine Metaphysics words pop up on the Lexicon. It appears that the words from either just the Divine Metaphysics, or the Divine Metaphysics and the Egg of Time were just taken and printed on the Lexicon... how unfortunate. Kamica (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

That's a bit disappointing. But thank you for looking into it. --Alfwyn (talk) 12:38, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

It would still be interesting to translate the entire lexicons, since the order of the text seems to be slightly different, but the text is hard to read because it is partially obscured, the texture is not high quality enough (for me atleast), and most of the letters are faded. Feel free to translate it to the Latin alphabet though, anyone who feels like it.Kamica (talk) 12:48, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

Under the "books" section,

I'm starting to think that each letter may actually mean something. For example, "WCGBYA" seems meaningless, but what if W means "an individual", the C means "created", G means "a great", B means "building", Y means "for", and A means "all"? That would mean that "WCGBYA", even though it looks meaningless, actually means "An individual created a great building for all.". If you look at another excerpt, "MOABD", it could mean "it is inevitable that all buildings die". "TCKIHN" could mean "The creator kills every person eventually".

I'm not saying my particular definitions are right, but the idea of each word being a sentence could be a nudge in the right direction as for translation. --99.101.12.26 17:26, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Unfortunately, that is much too speculative, because there are tens of thousands of different words that begin with each letter. Also, if I remember correctly, Bethesda basically confirmed that the two books are just gibberish. • JA^T 18:05, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

Incorrect Dwemer runes

Some Dwemer runes are incorrect, look at Imperial Library, Aldmeri alphabets they have translations from original authors. — Unsigned comment by 88.207.106.103 (talk) at 07:12 on 13 June 2013

Could you specify which runes are incorrect and give a link with the correct ones? Kamica (talk) 02:51, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

Falmer books

In the Dragonborn expansion for Skyrim, the player can find multiple ancient falmer books, which Urag gro-Shub will translate. This, combined with Calcelmo's Stone, Rosetta Stone-style, may be a step towards translating dwemeris. Am I on to something here or has this been tried already? 67.173.209.250 04:59, 13 August 2013 (GMT)

I have translated (roughly) the stone in both falmer and Dwemeris. I'm not 100% about the words, but I know, for a fact, that it is translatable. Too many things line up perfectly between the translations for it to be a coincidence and just random gibberish. Jeancey (talk) 05:08, 13 August 2013 (GMT)

The thing about the Falmer books, is that they are only written in a different alphabet, we already know the Falmer alphabet, just not the language. I've tried, but couldn't find anything. And yes, Calcelmo's stone is basically the same as the Rosetta stone on Earth, it's two languages telling, probably, the same message. Unfortunately there just isn't enough overlap to tell for sure what word translates to what. It seems the two languages don't share grammar. I do believe that the stone talks about the enslavement of the Falmer. You'll be interested in this page I reckon: http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Falmer_Alphabet Kamica (talk) 02:49, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

They are 100% the same text, and it 100% talks about the deal that the Dwemer entered in with the Falmer which resulted in their enslavement. It appears to tell the tale of the very beginning of the agreement, rather than the result. Jeancey (talk) 06:09, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

There's no word to word translations is what I meant, yes they say the same thing, but in different ways.

For example, take the english sentence "I'm going to take a walk" would be in dutch "Ik ga wandelen", translated literally, word by word back to English that says "I go walking". Same text, different grammar, writing order and word frequency, as such no words have been able to be translated in Dwemer from Calcelmo's stone.Kamica (talk) 11:58, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

This may be of interest: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/aldmeri-alphabets --Jimeee (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

After much work, I did manage to attach specific english words to specific dwemer words. But it is original research, so I won't be including it here :) Jeancey (talk) 18:46, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

I would like to know about that research of yours, I am ever interested in the Dwemer, I would suggest against keeping theories hidden as this will only hinder our understanding on the Dwemer =P.Kamica (talk) 23:13, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

Nchardak

In the Dragonborn DLC, Neloth on the quest "The Path of Knowledge" will say that Nchardak is the "City of a Hundred Towers" I don't think this is a literal translation, but it might be a rough one. I will compare some names, and see if anything seems similar, and see if I can make some correlations. Kamica (talk) 23:27, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

Aligning the texts from Calcelmo's Stone

I tried to make a rather speculative alignment of the Dwemer and Falmer texts on Calcelmo's Stone based on similarities in structure.

CHUN THUAMER ARKNGD CHEND DUATHAND, TH AHVARDN BTHAM.

ye sa sou meldi calne tarn va molagnensaliye trumbi nou bala

AMZ THUAMER AHRKANCH KEMELMZULCHOND AKA MORA,

ilpen av sou meldi nagaiale as guntumnia spantelepelaelia arani morae

TH THUANGZ AHRK,

ye sou liebali racurane

TH DUUM MELZ THUABTHARNG,

ye nu rautane sye

TH KANTHALN DUABCHARN MZIN THUASTUR, BTHARUMZ THUA MER ZEL. ABAKCH DUUMARKNG TUATHUMZ AMAKAI, TH ABAKCH AVATHELED KAGR TUAMKINGTH MZAN.

ye nu hautalle nou buroi gune sou gravuloi sa metane sye garlis frey as gondra doemera tarcel lane sou agea silya

DU CHAL FAHL NGARK, CHE DU FAHL BTHUN UR.

nu hecta sou arcten rias nu nemalanta ge

DU CHAL FAHL NGALFT, CHE DU BTHUN UR.

nu hecta sou epe gandra rias ne nemelauta ge

DU ABAK CHAL THU ABAZUN NCHUR DUABTHAR, NCHUL DUANCHARD.

nu frey sepe sye arcta varlor denai cullei noue

TH UR THUANCHUTH IRKND, UR IRKNGTH EFTARDN, THUNCH FAHLZ. BTHUN ABAK DUA MZUAL

staneiaye ry sou alasil auta ry loria shenta abagaiavoy malautavoy fey nou darre

TH NCHUAN DUARKNG, CHUN FAHLBTHAR THUANCHARDCH ANUM RALZ,

ye alata rou malae asma maraga sou anyamis av sercen

TH EFTAR THUACHENDRALDCH KAGREN THUA VANCHNINGTH.

ye getheng sou wend riarilia vey emeratu sou oia besia

— Unsigned comment by 108.21.186.181 (talk) at 05:19 on 26 August 2014

(I suggest you add a tag at the back of your posts (four ~ symbols in a row)) This is actually surprisingly useful... It seems that, quite consistently, nu is equal to Du, and ye with Th, I might look into this later a bit.116.193.147.34 05:36, 26 August 2014 (GMT)

So I did some checking and stuff, and I realised that your transliteration had some things right that the official transliteration had wrong (which I corrected) and some things were wrong in your transliteration. Including a missing sentence! So here is the corrected version (I doubt there are any mistakes in it, because I checked several times, but feel free to double-check it) Ill also add my attempts at translating it.

CHUN THUAMER ARKNGD CHEND DUATHAND, TH AHVARDN BTHAM.

ye sa sou meldi calne tarn va nou molagnenseliye trumbi nou bala

and so your driven [calne] portal(gate?) the/in fire-water-halls[-ye] [trumbi] our power

AMZ THUAMER AHRKANCH KEMELMZULCHOND AKA MORA,

ilpen av sou meldi nagaiale as guntumnia spantelepelaelia arani morae

[ilpen] from/in/of/upon your driven deathly[-le(pos?)] by [guntumnia] [span-telepe-]throat kings wood's(kings of(pos)wood)

TH THUANGZ AHRK,

ye sou liebali racurane

and [nu] [rautane(arctane=accept)] [sye]

TH KANTHALN DUABCHARN MZIN THUASTUR, BTHARUMZ THUA MER ZEL. ABAKCH DUUMARKNG TUATHUMZ AMAKAI,

ye nu hautalle nou buroi gume sou gravuloi sa metane sye garlis frey as gandra dwemera tarcel lane sou agea

and [nu] [hautalle] our slaves/vassals [gume] your [gravuloi(gravia=ugly)] so [metane(arctane=accept)] [sye] caverns(?) [frey] by gifts (of the?) Dwemer[-a] [tarcel(tar=wood)] [lane] your lore/wisdom

TH ABAKCH AVATHELED KAGR TUAMKINGTH MZAN.

ye frey as emeratis avatheledia carelle sou anyamissi bisia silya

and [frey] by musics(?) [avatheledia] [ca-]water your lives(?) new[-ia] [silya(silyanorn=acorn)]

DU CHAL FAHL NGARK, CHE DU FAHL BTHUN UR.

nu hecta sou arcten rias nu nemalauta ge

[nu] home/exile your [arcten(arcta=acknowledge)] [rias] [nu] [nemalauta] [ge]

DU CHAL FAHL NGALFT, CHE DU BTHUN UR.

nu hecta sou epe gandra rias ne nemelauta ge

[nu] home/exile your [epe] gifts [rias] never [nemelauta] [ge]

DU ABAK CHAL THU ABAZUN NCHUR DUABTHAR, NCHUL DUANCHARD.

nu frey sepe sye arcta varlor denai cullei noue

[nu] [frey] [sepe] [sye] acknowledge cast/mouth-dark [cullei] ours(?)

TH UR THUANCHUTH IRKND, UR IRKNGTH EFTARDN, THUNCH FAHLZ. BTHUN ABAK DUA MZUAL

staneiaye ry sou alasil auta ry loria shanta abagaiavoy malautavoy fey nou darre

[staneiaye] as your vision [auta(shauta=come)] as darkness come fear(?) [malautavoy] [fey] our [darre]

TH NCHUAN DUARKNG, CHUN FAHLBTHAR THUANCHARDCH ANUM RALZ,

ye alata nou malae asma moraga sou anyamis av sercen pado

and remnant/light our high(pos) [asma] [moraga] your life(?) from/in/of/upon [sercen] before

TH EFTAR THUACHENDRALDCH KAGREN THUA VANCHNINGTH.

ye gethena sou wend narilia vey emeratu sou oia bisia

and [gethena] your sea/journey/end(?) finals(?) [vey] music your [oia(oio=eternal)] new[-ia]

Based on this, I suspect that Ye(flmr) = TH(dwmr) = and(English) though there are 2 exceptions to the 8 cases I could find, one is in the first sentence, where the TH is on the other side of the sentence from the ye. The second exception is with the third-to-last sentence, where Th aligns with staneiaye.

Furthermore DU(dwmr) might be nu(flmr) (no English translation yet). However of the 6 cases this appears, 3 are inconsistent. But this might be because DU can be attached to another word, in which case there is one remaining inconsistency, DU CHAL FAHL NGALFT CHE DU BTHUN UR, where the DU corresponds with ne, which means never. (This might indicate that DU means both never and nu(flmr), so that nu/DU might be negatives.)

Then there is UR(dwmr) which seems to align with both ge(flmr) and ry(flmr). Which again, might mean that ry and ge are related/mean roughly the same. There are two instances of UR=ry and two of UR=ge, other than that, there are no exceptions.

I also suspect that THUA-(dwmr), TUA-(dwmr), sou(flmr) and sye(flmr) are all related somehow, but there are too many inconsistencies currently to figure that out, though I suspect that sye is a form of you(englsh)

rias(flmr) seems to flawlessly line up with CHE(dwmr), though there are only 2 examples of both and no English translation.

as(flmr) seems to have something to do with -CH(dwmr), having 4 correct instances, and the only 2 incorrect instances, the Dwemer word ends in -DCH(dwmr)

I hope this helps =P. Kamica (talk) 03:16, 17 May 2015 (GMT)

RE: New Findings! (warning - long post)

(I am the original poster, but now I have an account)

I revisited this topic again but I put in more effort to find correspondences. This time I looked at word frequencies. This proved challenging, since the Dwemeris and Falmeris texts have obviously different syntax and the Dwemeris in particular appears to affix more than the Falmer. Nevertheless, there are clear equivalences that pop out if you look at frequency.

I first looked at the Falmeris words that occurred most frequently, operating under the hypothesis that Falmeris words are less likely to compound than the Dwemeris words, and also with the understanding that we as a community are better able to identify compounding in Falmeris than in Dwemer.

These words are all used more than once in the Falmeris text:

Falmeris Words	Conjectured Meaning	Frequency (# instances)
sou	"your"	12
ye	"and"	7
nu	--	6
nou	"our"	5
frey	--	3
sye	"you (pl.)"	3
as	"by"	3
ry	"as"	2
ge	--	2
nemalauta	--	2
rias	--	2
hecta	--	2
bisia	-- (from bis, "new"?)	2
gandra	"gifts"	2
av	"from, in, of, upon"	2
meldi	"driven" (nom.)	2
sa	"sa"	2

Now to look at the Dwemeris text word frequency. In the interest of avoiding too much presupposition I have not split suspected compounds in THUA and DUA into component words.

Returning to the aligned texts, we can spot the following equivalences:

Dwemeris Words	Frequency (# instances)
TH	7
DU	5
UR	4
BTHUN	3
FAHL	3
CHAL	3
ABAK	2
CHE	2
ABAKCH	2
THUA	2
THUAMER	2
CHUN	2

There are fewer often-repeated words in the Dwemer. I suspect that compounding has at least some part to play in this.

There are some close correspondences in this table that are strongly suggestive. For instance, TH and ye occur seven times each, and although their alignments are not fully resolved they are so strongly correlated that I will assume their equivalence hereafter.

-----

frey :: ABAK, as :: -CH

I mentioned above that frey was exciting because it was found in close proximity to other frequent words in the Falmeris text. Assuming that the Dwemeris text is more or less literal, I hypothesized that the Dwemeris equivalent would follow that same pattern.

Using Kamica's revised alignment, I searched for phrases containing frey. Words appearing in the frequently-encountered-words tables are bolded:

Fragment 4

TH KANTHALN DUABCHARN MZIN THUASTUR, BTHARUMZ THUA MER ZEL. ABAKCH DUUMARKNG TUATHUMZ AMAKAI,

ye nu hautalle nou buroi gume sou gravuloi sa metane sye garlis frey as gandra dwemera tarcel lane sou agea

Fragment 5

TH ABAKCH AVATHELED KAGR TUAMKINGTH MZAN.

ye frey as emeratis avatheledia carelle sou anyamissi bisia silya

Fragment 8

DU ABAK CHAL THU ABAZUN NCHUR DUABTHAR, NCHUL DUANCHARD.

nu frey sepe sye arcta varlor denai cullei noue

As it so happens, if we assume ye :: TH, and eliminate unconserved words, then the fragments reduce:

Fragment 4

THUA ... ABAKCH ...

nu ... nou ... sou ... sa ... sye garlis frey as gandra ... sou ...

Fragment 5

ABAKCH

frey as ... sou ... bisia ...

Fragment 8

DU ABAK CHAL ...

nu frey ... sye ...

I urge the reader to look at the structure of the Falmeris. Fragments 4 and 5 in the Falmeris both share sou and frey as, and both the Dwemeris "equivalents" share ABAKCH only. Fragment 8 contains the similar-looking ABAK, but notice this: 4 and 5, in the Falmeris, contain frey as, while 8 contains frey. Considering that TH ABAKCH in the Dwemeris lines up better with ye frey as in the Falmeris than does ye ... sou, I posit the following correspondences:

frey as :: ABAKCH

frey :: ABAK

as :: -CH

The astute reader will notice that, while frey occurs three times in the Falmeris, ABAKCH / ABAK together occur four times in the Dwemeris. How can this be so? Let us take a look at the fragment containing the unresolved ABAK:

Fragment 9

TH UR THUANCHUTH IRKND, UR IRKNGTH EFTARDN, THUNCH FAHLZ. BTHUN ABAK DUA MZUAL

staneiaye ry sou alasil auta ry loria shanta abagaiavoy malautavoy fey nou darre

This fragment contains none of the frequent Falmeris words that, in Fragment 8, would have been contenders for the reflex of ABAK. However, there is a remarkable explanation. Note the antepenultimate word in the Falmeris: fey. I propose, in the absence of strong opposing evidence, that the scribe misspelled frey in transcribing the Falmeris. Obviously assuming scribal fallibility could be cause for alarm: how much can we trust either text? The answer is, of course, that we have no choice, except in the (hopefully, presumably) rare cases such as this.

"But," that astute reader is protesting, "what about as? There are also three incidences of as, and you only explain two." Let us turn now to the final instance of as:

Fragment 2

AMZ THUAMER AHRKANCH KEMELMZULCHOND AKA MORA

ilpen av sou meldi nagaiale as guntumnia spantelepelaelia arani morae

Look at the third Dwemeris "word": AHRKANCH. I suggest that as :: -CH, while free-standing in Falmeris, is a clitic in Dwemeris; and further, that it can attach to more words than frey :: ABAK. This also opens up the possibility that, in addition to the suspected prefixing, Dwemeris also employs suffixing of a sort. This is initially discouraging; it is much harder to identify a suffix from the apparently permissive structure of the ends of Dwemeris words. On the other hand, it presents a hitherto (to my knowledge) unexplored arena for searching for correspondences. A more troubling alternative exists, one I will not dwell on: given the meaning of as in Ayleidoon of "by [means of]", Dwemeris -CH could be an instrumental case. Since Ayleidoon, our closest reference for Falmeris and the only Elven language understood to any significant degree, has but rudimentary nominal inflection, I will set aside this theory for now.

-----

Conjectures about ye :: TH

I noticed that there are instances of TH that are not accounted for in the Falmeris, and instances of ye that are not accounted for in the Dwemeris. I believe I can explain the former by drawing attention to the following fragments:

Fragment 1

CHUN THUAMER ARKNGD CHEND DUATHAND, TH AHVARDN BTHAM.

ye sa sou meldi calne tarn va nou molagnenseliye trumbi nou bala

Fragment 9

TH UR THUANCHUTH IRKND, UR IRKNGTH EFTARDN, THUNCH FAHLZ. BTHUN ABAK DUA MZUAL

staneiaye ry sou alasil auta ry loria shanta abagaiavoy malautavoy fey nou darre

I have bolded a Falmeris word in each fragment that I believe accounts for the orphaned TH. Each ends in -ye, which I believe to be a variant of the more common ye. It is unclear whether writing -ye is a stylistic convention, an error, or a particular construction (compare Latin -que).

-----

Conjectures about Fragments 5 and 11

These two fragments contain chunks of Falmeris and Dwemeris words that seem to correlate rather well:

Fragment 5

TH ABAKCH AVATHELED KAGR TUAMKINGTH MZAN.

ye frey as emeratis avatheledia carelle sou anyamissi bisia silya

Fragment 11

TH EFTAR THUACHENDRALDCH KAGREN THUA VANCHNINGTH.

ye gethena sou wend narilia vey emeratu sou oia bisia

At first glance one can immediately spot avatheledia :: AVATHELED in Fragment 5. It then becomes obvious that both fragments contain emeratis, emeratu and KAGR, KAGREN. It is suggestive that an element found in the name of the [in]famous tonal architect KAGRENAC correlate to emeratu, "music", which supports the identification of the word. It is unclear what emeratis :: KAGR could mean, but they are certainly a pair.

Another correspondence, albeit more tenuous, is between bisia, which appears in both fragments, and TUAMKINGTH / VANCHNINGTH. In particular, THUA VANCHNINGTH appears to correspond to sou oia bisia, leading me to bisia :: -INGTH. I have less confidence in this assignment because there are several words in the Falmeris left unaccounted for in the Dwemeris in Fragment 5 - namely carelle and anyamissi, which should have a shared Dwemer translation with the anyamis of Fragment 10 but does not appear to.

I am coming to the conclusion that the translation from Falmeris and Dwemeris is not word-for-word. If this is the case, it will be much harder to identify Dwemeris words going forward.

A to-do for the future is to find a Dwemeris correspondence to Falmeris nemalauta, malautavoy, and auta, which all seem to be derived from the same verb ``(mal-)auta.

Abagarlas (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I've done some further. This is what I've found: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12FS45X3EdidYWWGIzMKXQT_uFJ22U0FiZ4gU_R5wVg4/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs

Pick it apart, I'd love to have a second opinion

Saxo Grammaticus (talk) 15:03, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

TESO Dwemer things

Okay, so I don't personally have TESO, but I'm using the UESP to sift through whatever information people have gathered to discover more information. So first off, in the loading screen of Yldzuun, it says that according to Guylaine Marilie, Yldzuun accurately translates as "Mechanized Paradise". However, Thelwe Ghelein (Author of Dwemer Inquiries) says it's better rendered as "Steam Closet". Though the second translation seems silly, Dwemer Inquiries seems a rather reputable source, and as such I'm inclined to believe this over "Mechanized Paradise"

In "Notes on Klathzgar's Schematics" it says that "Uurthehnchenthyalft" roughly translates to "Urenenya", Urenenya being an Ayleid princess (And lover to Klathzgar, which is both the name of a Dwemer engineer, and a ruin).

According to the loading screen of "Razak's Wheel" "Razak" is a relatively common Dwemer name, which means either "precision engineer" or "tonal modulator." Kamica (talk) 01:35, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Rename proposal

Looking at the current content of this page, I think it should be renamed to "Elven Alphabets", as the page describes and provides samples of many other Elven scripts than just Dwarven. Of course it would require tweaking the content slightly, too. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 07:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it should be changed. If the other elven alphabets are to be described on this page, there is absolutely no reason for it to be titled "Dwemer Alphabet"—it is just misleading and confusing. I'm suprised it was titled that from the start, as the Ayleid alphabet was always included. —Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 08:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

This page should not be renamed, the stuff that doesn't belong should be moved to other pages. Some discussion of very similar alphabets is to be expected, and the table at the top shows just how similar the other alphabets are. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:13, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

At this point, this page is just as much about other Elven alphabets as the Dwemeri—it's not just "discussion of very similar alphabets". If we were to make separate pages for the other alphabets, we'd have several pages with very little information, which would be both unnecessary and impractical for readers. Unless we despite that are to make new pages, I see no reason not to rename this page. While the other alphabets are similar to the Dwemeri, they are not based on it—if anything, it's the other way around; it makes no sense for all Ayleid alphabet information to be found on a Dwemer alphabet page, even though they should have a common page due to their similarity. —Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 18:39, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the rename. The current article name made sense when Dwemer was the only elven alphabet we had, but post-Oblivion it has been established that other races use the same alphabet. It can only benefit the article to take the unnecessary focus away from the Dwemer script, since it obviously deals with the others as well. —Legoless (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Another agreement from me; Silencer's indirect suggestion to instead split the page is something I'm against, since the elven alphabets described here are really close to each other, so close, that (at least in some cases) it is hardly descernable wether one particular text is dwemeri or ayleid, for example. A unified "Elven Alphabets" page is the way to go! -- SarthesArai ^Talk 15:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)