Lore talk:Nightmare Animal

Summary of Changes: 6/24/21

I trimmed a lot from this article, and I know people are going to have questions. A simple "marketing material =/= lore" is insufficient as an edit summary for as big as these changes are, so this post is my edit summary. I'm going to talk about the changes in the order they appear in the article.

First order of business that applies to all changes: I made it so the article doesn't repeat that each collectible has burning feet, burning eyes and black fur. I addressed this in the opening paragraph to make up for the removal.

• First change: removal of the Nightmare Stick Horse as a source

The stick horse was used to cite the following sentence in the first paragraph:

Thrice-cursed, they symbolize the rider's fiery dreams of all-consuming doom.

This is what the mount's description says:

Ride a stick mount that symbolizes your fiery dreams of all-consuming doom. Complete with flaming mane, tail, and eyes, this thrice-cursed novelty horse makes your stick-riding experience one for the books … of burning horror!

Firstly, I should address that this is a joke mount, just like the stick mounts that came before it. The following line was interpreted as lore: Ride a stick mount that symbolizes your fiery dreams of all-consuming doom. This is a light-hearted line, making fun of the fact that a silly stick horse was given textures and particle effects that match the existing Nightmare mounts. The joke is that this silly children's toy looks like a monstrosity from Oblivion. In an effort to get the joke across, the first sentence in this description exaggerates why someone would want this mount: "fiery dreams of all-consuming doom" is the sort of over the top, cartoon villain-esque mindset the developers are joking about in tandem with the mount's looks. "You are an evil overlord, ride your faithful demon stick horse into battle in Cyrodiil and watch the opposing Alliances cower before Sir Sticklewig's might". This was removed because the joke mount's description was stretched to try to squeeze nonexistent lore out of it.

• Second change: alterations to the Nightmare Courser paragraph

This is the line that was changed:

Many conflicting legends surround its mysterious origins, although all agree that only the mighty could hope to control such a beast.

The following was cited:

This flame-wreathed steed, black as the pits of Oblivion, is hungry for the chaos of war. Many conflicting legends surround its mysterious origins, but all agree on one thing: only the mighty could hope to control such a beast.

I'm honestly surprised "hungry for the chaos of war" wasn't interpreted as lore and the rest of the line was. "Many conflicting legends surround its mysterious origins" is negated by the second line of the article's first paragraph, which states the nightmare creatures were created by Mehrunes Dagon. This line is unnecessary.

"...although all agree that only the mighty could hope to control such a beast" was written for marketing purposes. It suggests this mount is difficult to deal with, and only those of strong constitution can overcome the troubles associated with owning one. Therefore, this mount is a status symbol: you have to be a badass to get one to listen to you. This line is rendered redundant by the sentence that follows, which reads, "It is sometimes used by mortals as a mount, although its chaotic temperament makes this a difficult task." We don't need to say "only the mighty could hope to ride one" and then follow it up with "mortals can use them as mounts, but their personality makes it hard". Doing so is redundant and doesn't add anything of substance. I can appreciate the affinity for flashy wording, but it only adds unnecessary fluff.

• Third change: Nightmare Bear Cub

The Nightmare Bear Cub adds nothing of substance whatsoever, except "there are bears like this from Oblivion, and their young are affectionate".

This is the line that was altered:

Nightmare Bear Cubs have flaming eyes and fiery paws, able to help others embrace their nightmares, and despite its appearance loves hugs.

Here's what was cited:

Some say you should embrace your nightmares. With this darling little bear cub, you can do exactly that! This trundling bundle of adorable terror might have flaming eyes and fiery paws, but it loves hugs.

This is an issue of marketing not being lore. The description provides us with an anecdote: "Some say you should embrace your nightmares." Then it gives us a blurb to convince you to go through the necessary measures to acquire the pet: "With this darling little bear cub, you can do exactly that!" This is a bit of a play on words, or a play on phrasing, if you will. "You should embrace your nightmares" is another way of saying "face your fears". The pet is called the "Nightmare Bear Cub". If you hug this bear, you are literally "embracing your nightmares": you're hugging the baby Nightmare animal. The description isn't saying "this bear will help you face your fears", it's a play on words to lead us into the fact this cub enjoys physical affection.

So what can we glean from this description? "This trundling bundle of adorable terror might have flaming eyes and fiery paws" provides no new information, but "it loves hugs" does. It likes hugs; it's affectionate, and it doesn't mind physical contact. Hugs are one of the closest forms of physical contact, as you press yourself against someone/thing when you hug it. The bear enjoys that contact.

• Fourth change: Nightmare Senche

First line of the paragraph:

The Manelord Nightmare Senche is a night-black senche-tiger that has burning paws and flames hissing from its face, and is King of the Nightmare Pride.

I left this mostly unaltered. I would argue that we shouldn't be presenting the "King of the Nightmare Pride" moniker, as we don't know if it's an actual thing or a marketing thing, and it really sounds like a nickname fabricated for marketing purposes. However, the murkiness of that situation is enough for me to leave it be, squinting at it while walking away and making that "I've got my eye on you" motion at it with my hands while I slowly back away into the shadows in the corner of the room.

Second line of the paragraph:

The Nightmare Senche is another member of the Pride, appearing as a senche-panther that breathes flames and brands flaming pawprints into the ground wherever it steps

The Nightmare Senche's description provides no lore. It's "the Nightmare Courser's in-game description, but worse". We don't know if it's part of the Nightmare Pride; that is never clearly stated. Some may think, "but isn't it obvious that the not-maned senche is also in the pride with the maned lion?" No, because we don't receive that information. Lions have prides; tigers don't. We don't know if this mount is a lion, a tiger, or one of the other giant animal senche stocks. Assuming that it's part of the pride is speculation. I understand the desire to have more sources on the subject, but the Nightmare Senche provides nothing of substance. If anyone reading this can find me a mount description that is more useless to lore than this (one that isn't from one of the very early promotional pets with a collectid in the single, double, or triple digits), I will give you a talk page cookie.

Seriously, this is the Nightmare Courser's description:

The origin of this horrific mount is obscure, but some see the hand of Mehrunes Dagon in it.

...and this is the Nightmare Senche:

The origins of this terrifying mount are obscure, but some see the hand of Mehrunes Dagon in it.

That is the exact same description word-for-word, with "horrific" replaced by "terrifying", "origin" made plural, and the latter half of the first chunk of the sentence changed to reflect that plural. I'm not even mad at the article, I've been disappointed with this mount's description since the day I got mine. I pre-ordered Summerset on day 1. I wasn't super enthusiastic about a senche re-skinned to look like a Nightmare Courser, I pre-ordered Summerset for the game, not the bonuses. But I was disappointed with the mount's description, and now that disappointment is coming out in a tangent on why the Nightmare Senche is useless for lore. At least Bastian and I can match now i get the cooler fire-mane lion because i'm the protagonist tho.

I haven't addressed the second half of the Nightmare Senche's sentence, so I'll do so now:

...appearing as a senche-panther that breathes flames and brands flaming pawprints into the ground wherever it steps.

All of the nightmare animals leave flaming hoof/paw prints behind when they walk, and all of them puff fire when they breath, with the exception (for fire-breathing) maybe for the Nightmare Courser because it's older and they didn't put super-minute details like that on the mount. Which is understandable; it was the first. The Nightmare Senche has been culled as a source because the Manelord which is superior in every way does everything the Nightmare Senche can do, but better, and it actually has a description with something of substance. They both have flaming paws and tails. They both puff fire, and they both leave burning paw prints behind when they run. All the Nightmare Senche is good for is saying "there are also senche-looking nightmare animals", and even that is a position it could be fired from at any moment.

• Closing statements

That's really all I have to complain about, the rest of the changes were minor, like formalizing the bit about wolf cubs to make it sound "academic" and adding the peak lore that is "Deadlands Dremora keep Firestalker cubs as pets". Seriously. Go play Blackwood, you're missing out if you're not.

†... And the mount's own in-game description, which vaguely suggested Mehrunes Dagon created the mount. They still tip-toe around the issue; none of the mount or pet descriptions say "Mehrunes Dagon made this", they say he's rumored to have made them (even though it seems obvious at this point), and the Battlefield Senche tells us that his cultists love them because the horned senche looks like it's been influenced by the Deadlands.

-MolagBallet (talk) 05:53, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: Further justifying the removal of the Nightmare Stick Horse, it's the only nightmare themed mount that doesn't say Mehrunes Dagon is rumored to have a hand in its creation. Add this onto my previous statements about the stick horse, and we have a mount that is pure marketing, all April Fools joke, no lore. They didn't bother teasing us with its origins because it's a ha ha funny joke product, and they're not expecting us to take it seriously. And we shouldn't be. -MolagBallet (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2021 (UTC)