Lore talk:Second Empire

Race of Reman

On the topic of the race of Reman I, all available information we have on him indicates that he is an Imperial - specifically, a Colovian. As the PGTE states:

"After Bendu Olo, the Colovian king of Anvil, led the All Flags Navy to victory over the slugfolk of Thras, the glory of the Cyrodilic people became known throughout the world. The Colovian Estates began to overshadow the richer, more populous East then, which eventually lead to the War of Righteousness that ended Alessian rule. Control of the Nibenay Valley reverted to a mercantile-magocracy that was still far too arcane for Western tastes to entertain a reunification of Cyrodiil. Four hundred years would pass before that would happen, when Reman I, another proud son of the West, rallied the Valley's army to join his own and fight the Akaviri Invasion of 1E2703."

It speaks of Bendu Olo, identifying him as the "Colovian king of Anvil". Right after, it speaks of Reman I, calling him (and using Bendu Olo as a point of comparison) "another proud son of the West", the West being a term the PGTE uses for Colovia. If the PGTE had the opportunity to call Reman a Nord, it would have done so, consdering the overly pro-Nord tone of the entire work. They don't. Neither do they identify him as a Redguard or as Breton. Instead, they call him a "proud son of the West", which has no other meaning than calling him a native Colovian. -ColovianHastur (talk) 22:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I one-hundred percent agree on your assessment of 'proud son of the West'. Though it seems to have been used by the Akaviri to refer to Tamriel, in the PGE it most certainly refers to him being Colovian, which at the time would mean Imperial as the Colovian Estates did not still have control of Falkreath (if they were even an existing political entity at that point, I don't remember). You mentioned on the Discord that all of the Reman Emperors were Men, which I believe but would like to see a source for regardless. After all, we have most of the Septim Emperors as Unknown.

Edit: Well, someone just edited all the Septim Emperors to be Men on the list, so I guess not. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't the one who edited the Septim emperor list, so I cannot comment on that. As for the Reman emperors being of the races of Men, it's mostly a lack of evidence to the contrary, the fact that the Empire is constantly referred to as the "Empire of Men", and as Chevalier Renald puts it, "Men have long been made slaves by Elves and Dragons alike, but we cast off those chains over many battles—many centuries—and established our own Empire". The idea of the Reman emperors not being of the races of Men becomes absurd when you consider that an abnormality in the emperors would be noted, be it by historians or otherwise.

At best, Reman III might be a human-elven hybrid, as the Feast of Saint Coellicia gives us an individual called Anwentende, who is said to be Brazollus's brother-in-law, and that name is certainly elven. Thus Emperor Brazollus Dor's wife would be an elf. However, this potential hybridization is not so notable that Reman III's racial status as a Man is ever called into question in the few sources we have on him, and that's assuming Reman III descends from this unnamed wife, and not another that Brazollus might have married at another point in his life.

The point being, that if the Reman emperors were not Men, and were either Beastmen or Mer, then we would know. -ColovianHastur (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. After all, the Third Empire was also called the Empire of Men despite having a Dunmer ruler. True, the Reman Dynasty was only five people, making abnormalities more noticeable, but I don't think it really benefits the wiki to add them all being Men unless it is directly stated. I feel the same way regarding the Septims so I'll probably revert or add sources over there when I get my laptop. Mindtrait0r (talk) 03:44, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I don’t feel that the quote proves that Reman was an Imperial; I feel it just confirms that he was from Colovia. Cambridge defines a son of somewhere simply as "a man who was born in a particular place," so if someone was a Breton who was born and raised in Colovia, would they not be a son of the west? Colovian is a demonym and a culture that doesn’t necessarily just refer to western Imperials. The Pocket Guide to the Empire says that "the Redguards of Elinhir are Colovian in fashion and taste." Chanel, who is a Redguard, says, "We're simple, God-fearing folk here in County Chorrol. Easterners worship their wallets and their fat bellies," which seems to be what a Colovian would say about a Nibenean. Falkreath was once a Colovian Estate, but presumably most of the inhabitants were Nords. This doesn’t specifically refer to Colovians, but Tsavi refers to Hlidara Mothril as Alessia Caro's Nibenean advisor, even though Hlidara Mothril is an Altmer. The argument that the Pocket Guide to the Empire states that Reman was an Imperial relies on two fallacies. The first is a fallacy of composition because it seems that it is being argued that if someone is from Colovia, that means that they must be an Imperial. The second is a false premise, which is that Bendu Olo was an Imperial; therefore, since the PGTE states that Reman was “another proud son of the West,” that must mean that Reman was an Imperial, but the phrase “a son of somewhere” rarely has ethnic or racial connotations, and instead the phrase usually refers just to a geographical location. You can’t use the PGTE not saying Reman was a Nord as evidence of anything. The PGTE never identifies Reman as a Nord, Redguard, or Breton, but it also never explicitly identifies him as an Imperial. If you want to put Imperial as Reman's race, go ahead; I won't touch it. Just please don't put man as the race of the other emperors. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 06:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)