Morrowind talk:Classes

Battlemage Stats

Twice now, anonymous editors have changed the skills of the Battlemage class. I'm looking at the Constructions set right now, and the proper stats are:

Major Skills:

• Alteration
• Destruction
• Conjuration
• Axe
• Heavy Armor

Minor Skills:

• Mysticism
• Alchemy
• Enchant
• Long Blade
• Marksman

I'm playing the PC version, GOTY edition. Does anybody have a different version maybe where the stats are different? Otherwise I have no explanation for why people keep changing this page. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 23:17, 1 February 2007 (EST)

Okay, the constant changes to this page were getting ridiculous. I've semi-protected it to prevent further mis-information from being posted here. If you feel that the information is incorrect, please explain yourself here. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 14:17, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

It might be different between XBox and PC version. I'll look on my Xbox and see what it says once i get a chance to.--DarksydeNeverAgain 19:08, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

Just checked, that's what it says on the XBox version, so maybe people are just getting it mixed up with Sorcerer or another class.--DarksydeNeverAgain 19:54, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

class by answering questions

This section has been moved to a new page, Morrowind:Class Quiz. This discussion has therefore been copied and continued on Morrowind Talk:Class Quiz. --TheNicestGuy 23:27, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I deleted the duplicate discussion; keeping it here seems likely to lead to confusion and duplicate followup. In other words, it's now been moved not just copied ;) --Nephele^Talk 00:22, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Page Size

I'm not sure whether it's the 'answering questions' section that has done it, but this page is now taking quite a while to load. Is it worth splitting the page up into sections - the 'answering questions' is a possible candidate for being on a page of its own, for instance. --Gaebrial 02:20, 23 November 2007 (EST)

The overall length of the page isn't really that long (wiki size is 54K; there are many longer pages on the site). The problem is most likely to be all the icons on the page. For some reason, the wiki seems to be really bad about dealing with images that are used repeatedly on a page. Instead of just downloading each image once, it seems to require each image to be downloaded repeatedly. There may also be some server settings aggravating the problem (I think each request is treated by the server independently, instead of keeping your original connection alive and just reusing for all the components needed to finish the page). Some research probably needs to be done at some point to figure out why these types of pages are being handled so poorly.

Even though I'm skeptical that it will help with the page's download time, it probably is still worth creating a separate page for the answering questions section. The content is different enough from the rest of the page. --Nephele^Talk 02:51, 23 November 2007 (EST)

Call me a radical, but I say 54k is ridiculously large for such a core reference article. I would expect an article simply called "Classes" to have an explanation of what a class is, how to choose one, general advice on how to use one, and then a succinct reference to the set of predefined ones. The table near the top handles this last one very nicely all by itself, because all that's really needed is a list of the major and minor skills, specialties, and preferred attributes. All other details are icing, and can be relegated to separate pages.

I'm particularly talking about the sections on NPC classes and on Socucius's quiz, since those could nearly be considered trivia. But even the sections for each of the predefined classes provide more detail than is needed in an article that should be a quick reference to Classes in general, in my opinion. The fact that they also require the page to load 21 different medium-size images makes it a no-brainer: They should be split out to separate pages. If it seems like this would result in rather small pages, that's true; but bear in mind that they are then wide open to including various other pieces of class-specific information. Like complete lists of NPCs in each class, grouped by location. Or tips and tricks for playing each specific class to the hilt.

There already seems to be a consensus that the "answer his questions" section needs to go to a separate page, so I'm going to go ahead and do that, whether it's correct and complete or not. I'm also going to rewrite and significantly expand the introduction, because it feels rather weak and haphazard to me. The other changes that I am proposing but not implementing yet are:

• moving each of the sections detailing the predefined classes to a separate page, and
• moving the list with details of the NPC-only predefined classes to a single separate page.

Discuss, please. I'm happy to do the gruntwork on that, but only if people seem to like the idea. --TheNicestGuy 21:52, 3 January 2008 (EST)

Your plan sounds good to me. Expanding the introduction (and adding some links to other relevant pages in the intro text) seems like a great idea. And separate pages for the quiz and the NPC classes also seem appropriate. None of those ideas seems controversial and, as you point out, there are already seems to be a consensus on the quiz page. So I'd say you can probably move forward on those whenever you'd like.

I'm not as sure about separate pages for each of the predefined pages. In part, by analogy to Oblivion, where the Oblivion:Classes page seems to work well (and is even the site's current featured article). Also, I think that most readers will want to be able to intercompare the various classes, rather than viewing them independently. For example, when choosing which predefined class to use, a reader will want to see the details on each of the classes being considered. I see your point about other info that could be included, but I'm not immediately sure how much of that info would be useful. A list of NPCs in a given class is easier to create using category pages, e.g., Category:Morrowind-Barbarian. And class-specific player tips sounds too reminiscent of Oblivion:Roleplaying; in particular it would be very prone to subjective opinions, and probably there would be a ton of redundancy (for example, would the class-specific tips for a Mage be all that different from the class-specific tips for a Sorcerer?)

But hopefully your other suggestions will keep you busy for a couple days ;). And by then a few other editors will have had a chance to chime in with their opinions on whether to separate the classes into individual pages. --Nephele^Talk 23:35, 3 January 2008 (EST)

As you can see, I've already moved the Class Quiz information and rewritten the explanation text. I took a few liberties, so I won't be surprised at a little dissatisfaction. Notably, I killed the "fake table of contents", which to me seemed like a redundant space-waster. Instead, I turned the name of each class in the big table into a link to the section below. Except on particularly small screens, those links should be accessible with minimal scrolling, thus just as useful. This also pushes the table closer to the top overall, which is a good thing, since I think it's the most useful element of the page.

The things you point out about removing the details of the pre-defined classes are all valid. Oblivion:Classes does work better than this, although I would still tend to say it's pushing it. It's got two improvements over this page: No icons for each skill, and a two-column layout. If those could be implemented here as well, I'd be happier.

However, as for quickly comparing classes, the big table does that already, and much more efficiently. My main objection to those details sections is that they have no information not already in that table except for the descriptive text. (And the starting spells, but we've already established those to be apocryphal.)

You're right that there's not too much extra information that would be appropriate for individual class pages. Categories are the right way to collect NPCs of a given class. On the other hand, where would you find links to those category pages? The most logical place would be in the detail sections here, or on individual pages for each class. It's easier to justify any amount of extra information if it doesn't add to the size of this page.

One compromise could be to move all the details together to a separate page called "Pre-defined Classes", conspicuously linked from this page. --TheNicestGuy 14:14, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Not Helping...

This page doesn't help me create a character, it just states how the game creates its built in characters. Someone should create this info, or change the description of the page. --Ryan D. 17:47, 24 November 2007 (EST)

The point of NPC classes

It's neat that there are predefined classes that are used by NPCs and not in the list for PCs, and that we can figure out their exact details. No dispute that it's good information for the wiki. However, the info is included on the page with no explanation of its actual point. What I mean is, if NPCs can never level up, does it actually mean anything that certain skills are major or minor for them? Every NPC has a full set of Attribute and Skill values just like the PC, right? So is there a formula that determines those values from a combination of race, class, and level? If so, it really needs to be revealed somewhere. And if not, then what is the point of NPC classes? --TheNicestGuy 11:33, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I'm sure that there are equations that determine an NPC's attribute and skill values based upon the NPC's race, class, and level. Most of the Morrowind NPCs have statistics that are auto-calculated, i.e., the construction set only specifies the NPC's basic info like race and class. The equations then kick into action, to convert the minimal data in the construction set into a full set of NPC statistics. However, I'm not aware that anyone has worked out those equations yet. They're not equations that Bethesda documents anywhere; for Oblivion, the comparable equations (Oblivion:NPCs) were worked out by digging up a ton of info and analyzing it. The equations are a bit less useful in Morrowind, given that NPCs don't level up with your character, but eventually I'm sure they'll be done (actually, I know somewhere I've already taken a first stab at it, but I haven't had time to follow through with confirming the equations and writing them up). So collecting information like the NPC classes in anticipation that later more details will be added is useful; a wiki can only be assembled one page at a time ;) --Nephele^Talk 23:46, 3 January 2008 (EST)

I'm working on that math, but then the question becomes, "What's the right way to organize all this if the NPC class list leaves this page?" The discussion relates more to NPCs in general than to Classes, so take a look at this thread. --TheNicestGuy 14:18, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Standard for linking to a class

Shortly after I removed the NPC classes to their own page, they were transcluded back in because that broke the redirects from the individual pages named after each class. My bad, and I think I've corrected all those redirects now. (Which needed to be done whether the content gets transcluded or not.) However, I'm sure there are still plenty of places that link to NPC classes with [[Morrowind:Classes#Class Name]] instead of [[Morrowind:Class Name]], and those will still be broken now that I removed the transclusion.

I will take the time to wade through the "What Links Here" for Classes and make corrections, but I need some guidelines. I believe all of the pages named after PC classes are redirects to Classes, but some of the pages named after NPC classes are actual pages with general information about the people of that class, and a quick link at the top to NPC Classes. The rest are redirects and now point at NPC Classes.

So take a look at this edit, where I tried to clean up the class links on the House Hlaalu page. Upon reflection, I'm not sure it's the best way to do it. Now none of the links go directly to the Classes or NPC Classes page, so the links to NPC classes that have an information page go to the information page instead. Does that make sense? Are there any other problems with this approach? Are there general standards we can use to decide when a link should be to [[Morrowind:Classes#Class Name]] or [[Morrowind:NPC Classes#Class Name]], and when it should be [[Morrowind:Class Name]]? --TheNicestGuy 10:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I'd say keep things simple and just always use links of the form [[Morrowind:Class Name]], at least for any examples like the NPC chart on House Hlaalu.

One reason all of the class redirects were put in place is so that links could automatically be used for every NPC's infobox. For example, on a page like Traven Marvos, the "Rogue" link that appears in the infobox under "Class" is automatically generated. So those links will always point to [[Morrowind:Class Name]], whether you like it or not (OK, if we all decide that we really don't like it, the template can be changed, but ignoring that).

Furthermore, most of the NPC charts that you'll find also just use the [[Morrowind:Class Name]] links (in part because most of them were generated by a script). For example, the charts on Balmora and nearly every other Morrowind place page.

So given that in most other cases, the simple solution has been used, I think the simple solution will work just as well on any pages you find that need to be manually updated :) At this point, if there are any problems caused by the link ending up at an article instead of a redirect, it's probably easier for everyone involved if we just tweak the article some more, instead of tracking down the hundreds of links ;) --Nephele^Talk 01:02, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Skill increase rate

Verification has been requested for the increase rates used by skills that are within the PC's specialization. There are actually four game settings that control the relative rate of increase of specialized, major, minor, and miscellaneous skills. Minor skills are the 'baseline', and are set to 100%. That is, you need 100% of the base 'experience points' required to increase a minor skill by 1 rank. Miscellaneous skills increase more slowly - they are set to 125% of the base. Major skills are set to 75% of the base, and specialized skills are set to 80% of the base. I assume that these percentages 'stack', so that a major skill that is within your specialization will increase faster than a major skill that is not within your specialization (60% of the base as opposed to 75% of the base).

To take an example, let's say you need a base of 20 'experience points' to increase a particular skill to the next rank. The actual 'points' you will need will therefore be: Miscellaneous, non-specialization: 25 points (125%); Miscellaneous, specialization: 20 points (125% + 80% = 100%); Minor, non-specialization: 20 points (100%); Minor, specialization: 16 points (100% + 80% = 80%); Major, non-specialization: 15 points (75%); Major, specialization: 12 points (75% + 80% = 60%);

--Gaebrial 08:43, 12 January 2008 (EST)

I was starting to guess that that's how it worked, since it's similar to the description over at Oblivion:Increasing Skills and explains why the Game Settings in the CS looked backwards. The question then becomes, how do you determine what the natural threshold of experience is for each skill level? Oblivion's got a strange formula: 0.25883 * skill_level^1.5 Is Morrowind's the same or similar? --TheNicestGuy 22:54, 12 January 2008 (EST)

I don't know how to calculate the experience needed per skill level - I don't think it's the same as Oblivion, but I suppose it might be. It just feels as though you need more 'experience' for each rank in Morrowind, but that could just be due to the differences in the way skills increase. --Gaebrial 09:31, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Personal Combat Build

I don't know if questions about personal gameplay preferences belong on this page, so I have relocated it to User_talk:Eric Snowmane, where I would be happy to answer whatever questions you have. Eric Snowmane^{Talk•Email•Contributions} 09:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect icons

I'm playing as an assassin, and when i level up the image at the top is the image this page has under rogues. Are we sure we have the right images matched up to their classes?174.61.251.163 06:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The images are correct. The items in the images correspond to the major and minor skills the class has; the rogue class has Axe as a major skill and the image has an axe. Perhaps it is a bug? Vely^►t►e 23:10, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

???

What is the bold letters for? — Unsigned comment by 142.197.82.233 (talk) on 28 October, 22:06

They indicate that the skill is in that class's specialization. Xolroc (talk) 02:27, 29 October 2013 (GMT)

It’s not clear. What do the m and M mean? Aphos (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Starting Spells

I have recently returned to Morrowind and in roleplaying fashion are making different characters with both standard and npc classes and have noticed inconsistencies from this article. I an playing the basic Xbox version. Firstly I have made a Breton Healer, conjuration is not a major or minor skill however it does start at level 20 and I start with bound dagger spell. Secondly I have made 2 characters using the Enchanter npc class. The first, a Khajiit started with just Fire bite. A Breton though of identical Enchanter class and birthsign started with an array of spells. It seems starting spells are based upon skill level rather than whether the skill is a major or minor skill. 31.106.176.74 10:24, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

We need a legend for classes table

The top table showing either “m” or “M” is not clear for a new player. What do these mean Aphos (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I see the first paragraph talks about major/minor but the table could still have a legend Aphos (talk) 04:59, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

trap an Assassin

Assassin usually attack from behind. they are placed by the game engine at about 5-6 feet from you? that can be INSIDE an object that captures them, even as a duo, eg the Balmora Fighter Club's downstairs bunkbeds. choose a wise position and try to have a sleep. if you want to KNOW if there is a change then the line "someone watches me" MIGHT be a clue. and Assassins CAN arrive as a COUPLE85.149.83.125 18:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I am no moderator or anything but keep things relevant to the page. this is not the forum. Assassin attacks from the Dark Brotherhood are not remotely related to this page TheSeldomConsitentEditor (talk) 08:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Errors in the class table

There are some errors in the class table: monk's magic skills are shifted one to the left (mysticism and restoration rather than restoration and unarmored) and witch hunter's stealth skills are shifted one to the right. I'd fix it myself but the page is protected. There might be other errors but I haven't looked thoroughly. 172.59.144.230 12:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Fixed monk's magic skills and witchhunter's stealth skills; will review the other classes later. Thanks for pointing out the issue! Salamangkero (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Request for pages detailing NPCs of these classes

There are various pages detailing NPCs which fall under NPC exclusive classes, none such pages, at least no their links, are found here. I hereby request these to be worked on. How can I contribute to this endeavor. TheSeldomConsitentEditor (talk) 08:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Good idea! It is as you say: in MW:NPC Classes, there is a "List of <NPC Class, plural>" link. You can do the same in this page: add a "List of <Class, plural>" bullet item below the major and minor skills then link it to the corresponding category pages. Salamangkero (talk) 08:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)